The Pastor Doth Protest Too Much
The Pastor Doth Protest Too Much *
A response to “Something Wicca This Way Comes”
Adventist Review, August 23, 2007
By Andy Hanson
I'm not an historian or archaeologist. However, Mr. Kolessar's letter, “A Bowl of Cherries Riding on a Swine”, Adventist World-NAD, August 2007, is a reminder that it is wise consider the meaning of words in the context of the time in which they were written. Here's my question, “Did the author of Deuteronomy have fantasy fiction in mind when he condemned witchcraft?”
Deuteronomy 18 is cited twice in this polemic against the Harry Potter series. How about putting Deuteronomy 18 in the context of Deuteronomy 17 and 19, and publishing articles advocating stoning or “an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot?”
Christians from a variety of religious persuasions praise this series as highly moral. Some authors even equate Harry Potter with Christ, in that he was willing to die to save others.
Those things aside, the reason I'm writing this letter is to issue a reminder that every time a sermon is preached, reference is made to a book that graphically describes genocide, rape, dismemberment, lakes of fire, dragons, plagues, the slaughter of helpless animals, and the drowning of all but a handful of people and animals in a worldwide flood.
While I was a child growing up in Adventist home and community, I was encouraged to read this book every day, and the stories in it were referred to constantly in Sabbath school and church. They terrified me and kept me awake at night. The most terrifying thing of all was that these stories weren’t fantasy; they REALLY HAPPENED or WOULD HAPPEN FOR SURE in the future.
The nightmares were vivid and unforgettable. (My father’s blood was really red when the Catholics machine-gunned him!) At that time my home environment was chaotic, and everything I heard in church and school made me feel powerless, without hope, and damned for eternity.
My salvation was fiction. Children my age were in charge of their lives to the extent that they could solve mysteries, bring evildoers to justice, save lives, and make their parents and friends happy and proud. These books, while not as popular or acclaimed as the Harry Potter series, helped keep me psychologically safe and sane.
The great Wiccan conspiracy has not troubled my dreams as of yet. I’m still trying to come to terms with America’s nightmare war in Iraq and the death and destruction initiated by the “Christian” politicians who meet in Bible study groups every morning. I would much rather those folks “summon ‘natural spirits’ in their rituals”.
* A more fully developed editorial piece by the same name is posted as an editorial on Adventist Perspective, as is a defense of the Harry Potter Series, Harry and His Friends, by Robert A. Howard.
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"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness." Isaiah 5:20.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious to know what Mr. Anson thinks of this Bible verse:
ReplyDelete"Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together and burned them before all men and they counted the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." Acts 19:19-20
I suspect he'll theorize and philosophize to justify his rant about the Harry Potter series.
This Bible verse tells me CLEARLY that if the Word of God is to have any power in my life, it's IMPERATIVE I renounce all forms of spiritualism, be it in children's books, cartoons or bland kindergarten poems.
It's amazing how far people will go to justify their own twisted views of Christianity and Adventism.
The jury is still out on Mr. Anson's contribution, if any, to sound theological discussions. In my opinion, his blog is a travesty to real Adventist perspectives.
"The nightmares were vivid and unforgettable. (My father’s blood was really red when the Catholics machine-gunned him!) At that time my home environment was chaotic, and everything I heard in church and school made me feel powerless, without hope, and damned for eternity."
ReplyDeleteFiction was my escape from this as well. And this didn't even include an eternal hell to deal with. There is no doubt in my mind that the teaching and culture that formed these experiences could be included in the category of child abuse. Probably unintentional, but none the less, abusive.
Jesus Camp is a film that captures this experience in another Christian setting, but the children's response is recognizable to me and all too familiar.
It is clear to me that Adventist theology and most Christian theology has its basis in fear rather than love. It is closer to the methods used in George Orwell's book 1984 than to some Divine revelation.
I find that many people who have left Adventism are not likely to be lured back because we have learned from experience the life threatening nature of that way of thinking.
I have not left Adventism passively. I consider it to be a life draining belief system that requires a tremendous amount of energy to maintain the mental gymnastics and to stave off the shame.
The deeply disturbing aspect is that it is not maintained maliciously, but it derives its power from ignorance. And this is maintained by beliefs that those of us who tell our stories are seen as somehow less enlightened or misguided.
I have learned the principle that truth does set one free. I don't see the commitment to rigorous honesty within Christian theological communities. I do observe fear, shame, and anger as these commuities are forced to confront the difficult history of the Bible and the Christian church. These are not the signs of a community who has the truth. These are the signs of a community in fear.
Yes, I think that Acts 19 is quite relevant for the HP debate.
ReplyDeleteI guess I don't quite follow the conclussion, "I would much rather those folks “summon ‘natural spirits’ in their rituals”."
Could you clarify this for me, Andy?
An interesting discussion took place a few weekends ago at the house of Julius Nam, a professor of Religion at Loma Linda University. Julius hosts a monthly series of conversations in his home entitled "Living Conversations".
ReplyDeleteHe invited a Wiccan practitioner to come and discuss Wicca with a group of young Adventists.
During the discussion, the question was posed to the wiccan guest what she and other wiccans had to say about Harry Potter. Specifically, is Harry Potter real magic, and does it agree with Wicca.
Her succinct reply: "No." She went on to point out that all the holidays in the books are Christian holidays, not wiccan ones. The themes, she said, are distinctly Christian. The magic spells in Harry Potter are nothing like real spells.
In short, Harry Potter is much more Christian than it is Wiccan. That coming from a Wiccan practitioner and information officer for the Coven of the Goddess in Southern California!
dear collegiate,
ReplyDeleteyou might as well have invited the Devil to the meeting and ask if he has any evil intentions whatsoever towards humans and he will answer with a resounding "No!"
He is the father of lies and his followers are his children.
Satan was never so naive to do anything flat out demoniacal and evil: He always mixes his wiles with TRUTH to make it all the more attractive, yet ever so destructive. The fact that Harry Potter alludes to Christian Holidays is proof of that.
It's interesting that anyone would believe a statement by a Wiccan rather than observing the results of their activities. The Acts episode above speaks directly to this discussion and we can't escape its poignancy.
Also, I'd like to point you all to the writings of Roger Mourneau, an adventist author who was a spiritualist medium before conversion. His accounts of what happened to members of the Grants Pass SDA Church, Oregon in his book "Beware of Angels" are a chilling reminder of the active role fallen angels have even in the lives of church members.
Maybe the HP series is just another such diversion in the SDA Church in these last days.
Methinks Richard doth protest too much.
ReplyDelete“I find that many people who have left Adventism are not likely to be lured back because we have learned from experience the life threatening nature of that way of thinking.
. . . I consider it to be a life draining belief system that requires a tremendous amount of energy to maintain the mental gymnastics and to stave off the shame. . .”
Although no longer an Adventist, I remain a Christian. I thank God for what he did in my life as a consequence of remarkable Seventh-day Adventist pastors. I constantly thank God for the opportunity I had of working in the mission field and witnessing the good work done in those many hospitals, schools and publishing houses - and of the great message about Jesus which was preached by faithful witnesses. I see nothing life threatening there.
The name Seventh-day Adventist stands high in Africa and many other parts of the world because of the self-sacrifice of so many deeply committed church members and employees. I shall never forget the professor of astronomy at the University of Natal in South Africa who welcomed me into his home one harvest-ingathering evening, many years ago. He could not say enough of how an Adventist doctor had saved his sight. He was talking about Doctor Staples, who could have earned a thousand times more outside of the church but rather chose to serve Jesus faithfully day after day in his clinics at Bethlehem (South Africa), and in Lesotho. I think of the many customs and immigration officers, and other government officials in Africa who always spoke so highly of the work of the SDA church as I passed through their countries.
Of course we need to move away from the silly nonsense about Harry Potter – expounded by SDA’s and Christians of all persuasions (too often we misunderstand 2 Timothy 3:16). And so it is with numerous other ‘ideas’ which we Christians sometimes harbour – we need to turn aside from hurtful opinions which are not conducive to a contemporary enlightened worldview. Together with Richard we certainly need to read more widely, and reflect more deeply about the good things which mankind has so graciously thrown our way as they have progressed down through the ages. Let’s not rid ourselves of the great champions of justice – Jeremiah and other great prophets of the Old Testament. Neither must we forget the lowly Galilean who struck out in an entirely new direction those many years ago. With such literary tools readily at hand we will better be able to sort the dross from the beautiful without necessarily discarding the great treasures which the Bible has to offer – and which are the flesh and blood of many a Christian’s belief.
It's sad and baffling to me how threatened those compelled to speak here against Harry Potter sound. It doesn't all sound like knee-jerk defensiveness to me. It sounds as if you are really trying to protect yourselves or those you love from something. I just don't understand what.
ReplyDeleteI hear the verses you quote and believe them. However, I must have over the years developed different standards for applying the labels evil and good, light and darkness. A thing isn't evil just because it trades on images, metaphors and themes that are unfamiliar or that fall outside of my or your comfort zone. I could be wrong, but this seems to be the measure by which Potter is being condemned here. Wouldn't a better measure be "does it promote life?"
The other thing that puzzles me is the apparent need to protect Adventism or Christianity from the "twisted views" of others. At what point did God give us this commission? When the disciples would drift into this elitist posture Jesus would admonish them and totally subvert their expectations with statements like, "Those who aren't against me are for me." When will we realize that neither God, truth nor theology needs our protection, just our commitment to seek and live the good we find.
Richard's words are so beautiful and so resonate with me. One would think that, with the less than stellar history that Christianity has had, those who defend it would be a little more humble in their claims to possess TRUTH or desire to denounce the paths, perspectives and gifts of others.
Andy & Richard, I appreciate your openness about your early experiences with Adventism and the concomitant emotions. I've been learning that vulnerability is healing, both for the one sharing and for the listener.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in this church as well, but I personally didn't have those reactions or experiences. But I think there are important lessons in what you share, and I think there's quite likely more to be gained for all of us from discussing those images and nightmares than in continuing to beat the HP horse.
From what I understand of the Jewish educational system in days of yore, they were intentional about the development of their children. They weren't just handed the scrolls and sent home to read about people getting ripped apart. An extreme example of this is that Jewish males weren't supposed to read the Song of Songs until they were 30.
I also appreciate that kids weren't forced to sit in church from day one. They were introduced to it gradually, so a 5-year-old didn't learn to hate sitting still and being bored for an hour every Sabbath.
They seem to have been more age appropriate with their religious education and expression.
I'm curious how many others had scary experiences growing up in the church. How widespread is this? What were the main causes? What can be done to prevent that? How can we better teach love and not fear? Any takers?
And, yes, Jesus Camp was out of control. I wrote about it here:
http://packlight.blogspot.com/2007/08/jesus-camp.html
Jeff posted "I grew up in this church as well, but I personally didn't have those reactions or experiences."
ReplyDeleteI don't think you will have those reactions without the experiences.
"I think there's quite likely more to be gained for all of us from discussing those images and nightmares than in continuing to beat the HP horse."
I agree. Harry Potter is not the problem. I believe the problem is holding the Bible as some sort of superior moral guide put together by God.
The history of Christianity does not demonstrate this at all because each group considered itself the Biblical group and provided complex theologies to direct their actions. And today the argument is given that they simply didn't apply the Bible correctly, implying that now we can read the Bible without killing people who disagree, even though that is eventually what the god of the Bible is going to do.
My observation is that every Christian picks and chooses. Its a good thing since strictly Biblical theocracies are terrible things to live under.
In my observation truth is only understood with the experience of what works and what doesn't work. I have learned that you don't need the Bible to live a joyful, abundant, and love filled life. The only thing that I see the Bible adding is fear.
You can find much better sources for successful living in other people and places. Jesus certainly has become a focus for some very insightful considerations as long as you don't take everything he says literally. But Jesus was not the first to say what he said.
In the real world when someone tells me that such and such is true and when I try it out it doesn't work, I am free to observe that they don't know what they are talking about. With the Bible, when an idea doesn't work, people generally place the blame on the person rather than the information.
And restricting exposure to a later time doesn't make something terrible any more true. I have found it far more effective to teach my children how to evaluate if something is true, rather than give them a set of ideas to try and make true in every case. Even Jesus said one standard of truth was fruits.
In terms of basic moral behavior presented by the bible, each of these principles that work can be found in other writings and one can come up with them through rational means.
And the area where the bible is particularly weak in is an organized philosophy of how to change one's behavior. If it is there, it is certainly poorly written and not very clear at all considering the vast amount of conflicting "answers" coming out of the Christian community.
I think it would be far more valuable to talk with people who are living successful lives and look at what they are doing and thinking specifically, rather than waste all this time decoding an iron age document.
Andre I have some concerns about Roger Morneu's earlier books, however I am not familiar with the one which you mention.
ReplyDeleteI have some considerable experience with the pentecostal churches - I am sure you are aware of the claims which pentecostals/chairsmatics make concerning healing and other miraculous happenings - such as windows being blown out of churches and oil falling from the ceiling - all meant to convince us that the holy spirit is being poured out. The vast majority of healings and reports (I would say 99.9%) have no substantial backing or documentation whatsoever.
I wonder about Morneu's books. He makes some remarkable claims which I find highly questionable. I did write to one the editors of The Review and Herald Publishing Association a few years ago expressing my concerns regarding some of the incredulous claims/experiences made by Morneu. I asked for documentary evidence and he wrote back a very nice letter - the substance of which was that Morneu was a sincere fellow and that the R & H Publishing Assc had never doubted his honesty or called for any documentary or alternative substantiation. I found his comments worrying - especially coming from the R & H.
Do you have any substantial evidence such as access to affidavits etc regarding any of Morneu's experiences? I often find that when these occurances are investigated they do not bear up under scrutiny.
Gordon stated, "Although no longer an Adventist, I remain a Christian. I thank God for what he did in my life as a consequence of remarkable Seventh-day Adventist pastors. I constantly thank God for the opportunity I had of working in the mission field and witnessing the good work done in those many hospitals, schools and publishing houses - and of the great message about Jesus which was preached by faithful witnesses. I see nothing life threatening there."
ReplyDeleteThis is a case of mistaking the acts of individuals as coming from the group they belong to. Its interesting that when Adventists do terrible things Adventists generally state that we can't judge the church by their actions because everyone is human, but then if Adventists do good things it must be because they are Adventists.
What I have observed is there are certain individuals in every group that live successful happy lives. There is no evidence that there are a larger percentage of Christians that live happy lives. I would say that by claims of being Christian the opposite is true. There are by percentage far more Christians in jail than atheists.
This is an excellent quote by George Smith that expresses what I have observed, "In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation."
Sadly, I can relate to the fear in childhood that has been mentioned in this thread. I was robbed of the few years of innocence I might have had. How well I remember the adults sitting around potluck tables speculating over the mass torture and murder that would come upon faithful SDA's and their children. So afraid was I, that at 6 yrs of age, I kept a knapsack packed with supplies so when the evil-doers came to kill us because of our Sabbath-keeping, I would be ready to climb out my window and escape into the woods. It played with my sleep also.
ReplyDeleteMy childhood was full of the torment & anguish described here.
I was told that even one unconfessed sin would keep me OUT of Heaven. I would labor on my knees beside my bed weeping because I was afraid I had forgotten something and therefore could not be forgiven. This was WRONG.
Many of the flyers passed around by the church have hideous, sensational drawings of bloody beasts and scantily clad whores of Revelation upon them. When my children were small, I dreaded every Revelation seminar because of those images.
The church needs to stay on the positive, looking for the good in people, instead of only seeing the doom & gloom. It doesn't take a genius to point out what's wrong in the world, but what is right???
In the words of Pollyanna, "If you look for the good in something, expecting to find it, you surely will." It's all in perspective folks.
I've been hearing commentary on how terrible the world is and how near the end we are since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. The only good that is ever extolled is what's happening within the church- which is always painted as being a shiny and happy beacon of light. Surely there is MORE!!
I must respectfully disagree with the statement that Adventists are held in such high esteem in Africa. Perhaps in certain parts, but the people of Rwanda still feel the sting of betrayal and murder at the hands of our very own University President who offered shelter, then turned over men, women and children to their deaths. They were slaughtered and burned on the SDA campus.
To look out on the world as if they are all wrong and we are the only truth and light is unrealistic and inaccurate. We are still NOTHING but sinners in need of grace- whether or not we understand the depths of the Fourth Commandment, or the essentials of living a vegetarian lifestyle.
I have never read the Potter books and cannot comment on them either way...
Strong words, Genesis2day. What exactly are "real Adventist perspectives" and who is to say??
We have lived in our own bubble world so long, in many ways a realistic world view has been lost.
How many of you have even MET a Wiccan? I gather you'd run the other way if approached by one. If your neighbor was a Wiccan, would you be friendly toward him, showing the love of Christ?
"Greater is He that is in YOU, than He that is in the world."
Why so defensive and fearful?
Melvin said:
ReplyDelete"When will we realize that neither God, truth nor theology needs our protection, just our commitment to seek and live the good we find."
If Luther had been of that persuasion, we would all be bowing to the Pope today...
"Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me." Luther
~~~~~~~~~
Trailady,
I don't see how defending a Biblical position on works of magic and the occult is necessarily being fearful and defensive. The Bible is very clear on how we should relate to these things. It has be cold turkey.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not living in the shadows of my "fears" of the works of darkness however they choose to express themselves, be it flat out or ever so surreptitious like the HP series. BUT, I want to be able to say about them "he has nothing in me." (John 14:30).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gordon,
Morneau's book is called Beware of Angels, you should read it if you're looking for something more documented.
As far as his other books, I understand your concerns, I've shared them myself. However, I decided that I can't base my faith on cold, hard FACTS and fully documented occurrences. If I allow myself to be so incredulous of all things supernatural (running on an empty tank of gas and the like), I will easily begin to question the supernatural in the Bible and ultimately, God's real presence today.
There are things in the Bible that one could also find "highly questionable": the sun going counterclockwise, waters parting etc.
"Blessed are those who have not seen, and believed." John 20:29
Having said that, I choose to believe Mr. Morneau's stories about Lucifer and his angels and I suspect that if that were the case for many a blogger here, they would not be so quick in defending the HP series.
~~~~~~~~
And to those who left because they've painted Adventism with broad brushes as a fear-mongering religion, I'd like to say that because you've "thrown the towel", your comments and opinions have little impact. Not because they're not necessarily true, rather that your input is easily seen as vitriol. As an outside critic, your mudslinging is just as good as the next.
I'd rather read stories of people that were able to surmount whatever negative experiences they had as Adventists, discovered God's purpose in and through it all and decided to stay.
Without wishing to flog a horse to death, I think Richard Harty has highlighted an area which must be addressed by the Christian church at large. The internet is full of forums for hurting christians - let alone SDAs. People are certainly hurting out there as a consequence of a misconception of what Jesus is all about - and that would include a far too fundamentalist view of the Old Testament as well. We need to step back and confront the Biblical account of God's place in human history. A slavish response to 2 Timothy 3:16 will only lead us into trouble.
ReplyDeleteRwanda is a blight on the Christian Church at large - the Adventist church included. It points to deeply embedded socio-cultural problems encountered in all parts of the world. Two areas where this is eminently so is Rwanda and certain parts of Eastern Europe. However Rwanda by no means wipes out the good that has been done in so many areas of the world. I was proud to have once been part of the Adventist church - it seems to be eminently well organised in terms of mission hospitals, schools, health clinics etc., and has certainly attracted highly dedicated educationists, doctors and others.
One challenge which Adventism now has to face is the consequence of the great emphasis it has always placed on education. No bad thing that! Nevertheless educated people are far less likely to swallow any old story - especially at a time when the great historical metanaratives are being challenged - especially the account of the 'Great Controversy' . . .
This is a powerful thread, a mix of significant themes. Open discussion is good.
ReplyDeleteHere are some of my opinions on fear, love and morality in Christianity (please take the comments as a whole; individual sentences could easily be misconstrued. complete thoughts will offer enough fuel for the fire, so to speak)...
While I do think Jesus was a good moral teacher (e.g., see Walter Wink on turning the other cheek and Jesus' use of word play in quoting the OT to make profound points), I don't see that as his distinguishing mark. I agree that there have been many great moral teachers. Though I don't know of many who have taught us to love our enemies, the only answer to the cycle of violence.
I do think he was teaching his crew how to live with a faith and trust that would get both fear and pride out of their lives. I think we see that he was successful after his resurrection--these humble believers of a seemingly ruined faith changed the world with dedication and love and forgiveness.
Jesus did consistently teach and live love--especially love to the marginalized of all stripes. But he also referenced "weeping and gnashing of teeth," so let's consider it.
It could be a fear tactic if he was trying to manipulate his listeners. But it could also be understood as love if the threat was real, and he was trying to let people know about it so they could avoid it. Like a parent telling their kid why they shouldn't touch the hot stove.
If hell is real, then some words on it could be either a warning or manipulative. If it's not real, then the teaching is just to manipulate. So at least two questions are open for debate--(1) Is hell real? (2) Did Jesus mention hell in order to warn or to manipulate?
I have three more thoughts (government/power, hell 2.0 and the messy Bible), but I'll save them for my next comment.
Here's a quote to end for now:
"The shortness of time is urged as an incentive for us to seek righteousness and to make Christ our friend. This is not the great motive. It savors of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God be held before us to compel us through fear to right action? This ought not to be. Jesus is attractive."
--EG White
Okay, my three more minor thoughts--government/power, hell 2.0 and the messy Bible.
ReplyDeleteFirst, while there is no doubt that great atrocities have occurred within Christian governments (e.g., Rwanda as mentioned, Inquisition, religious persecution by Protestants, and others--see God is Not Great), it is also true that anti-Christian governments have been unbelievably cruel as well (e.g., governments under Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao...). Maybe this is more for Hitchens than for this thread.
I'm not saying this excuses Christian governments of anything or that Christianity is therefore still good. I'm just saying extreme non-Christian leadership is not more beneficial than extreme religious governments. It is wrong that Christian leaders have not consistently provided just governments throughout modern history.
It seems that power (rather than nuclear weapons) could be the Ring the Lords are after. Power is an amazingly corruptive force. It's noteworthy that Jesus taught his friends to value service rather than positional authority.
This issue could be debated greatly; there's much more to be said on both sides of this one (or more than two "sides").
Second, the role of fear and hell in other religions is also perplexing to me, as are the descriptions of heaven(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell). For example, I lived in South Korea for 3 years. There I visited dozens of Buddhist temples while out hiking and traveling that were invariably painted with demons and pictures of hell. One temple even had stone sculptures of the tortures that await those in hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_%28Buddhism%29). Yet in the west, we mostly hear that Buddhism is about being happy.
Rather than a reason for Christianity being "better" than other religions, I can see why depictions of hell in most religions could lead people to discount them all as fear-mongering.
That said, I do believe the SDA view of hell is a gift in our world (presuming hell is real). [That ought to bring some comments.] Seriously, though. Who else views it as low on torture and high on making a world that we'd actually want to live in?
But that brings up God's criteria for those who end up there. I believe it is the end of unrepentant rapists, the unashamed murderer or torturer, etc., not the chocolate eater or believer of baptism by sprinkling (to use extreme examples).
Third, I don't think the Bible teaches much at all in the "systematic" format of a western textbook. Rather, it is heavy on stories and light on systematic theology. It is an account of history, God's history of interactions with us, for the most part. History was messy, and the Bible's rending of it is necessarily messy too. The lessons seem more to be gleaned than to be put in outline form. This is similar to many (but not all) other great religious writings.
Could it be said that we read stories to learn about people and lists when we learn about things? An overstatement?
genesis 2day.com wrote:
ReplyDelete"it's IMPERATIVE I renounce all forms of spiritualism"
Jesus' parable The Rich Man and Lazarus is "spiritualistic" in its depiction of consciousness after death, yet it still had a message Jesus wished to convey. By the standard Jesus used we should use caution in rejecting fantasy literature outright.
And of course, for Adventist readers who respect Ellen White's view on things, it's insightful to know that she had images of the "original" Harry Potter, King Arthur, decorating her fireplace mantel at her final home, Elmshaven (as described at www.elmshaven.org on the Entrance and Living Room page).
Thanks for your comments Andre, I shall certainly order the latest book by Roger Morneau "Beware of Angels".
ReplyDeleteI have searched the net extensively to find out something about a murder which Morneau's reviewer's talk about but have failed to find anything.
does anyone else have any comments about Roger Morneau and his claims regarding the spirit world?
I can't speak to the late Roger Morneau's personal experiences, but I can say that he prayed for my family and we received some "incredible answers to prayer." I describe the supernatural events that led to my grandfather's salvation in chapter 26, "The Millennium and the End of Sin," in the multi-author book "Fresh Faith" (Review and Herald, 2001).
ReplyDeleteAndre posted "And to those who left because they've painted Adventism with broad brushes as a fear-mongering religion, I'd like to say that because you've "thrown the towel", your comments and opinions have little impact. Not because they're not necessarily true, rather that your input is easily seen as vitriol. As an outside critic, your mudslinging is just as good as the next."
ReplyDeleteIf something is true its not vitriol. This is not intellectual honesty, but smoke and mirrors. Attacking the messenger has nothing to do with what is true.
If I was a former member of the Catholic church in the middle ages and I stated that I left because they were burning witches I don't think you would see it as vitriol. I think throwing in the towel would be seen as a good thing. And you might point to all the good things the Catholic church was doing.
Andre posted "I'd rather read stories of people that were able to surmount whatever negative experiences they had as Adventists, discovered God's purpose in and through it all and decided to stay."
This is the proverbial head in the sand approach. This solves nothing. I have been able to surmount all that happened to me. I dialog about this because I want it to stop. It hasn't stopped as evidenced by the comments within this very blog.
Its very easy to point out that fear is the basis of this belief system, not love. One example is Roger J. Morneau. His ideas create more magical thinking in regards to prayer and demons than all the Harry Potter books put together.
He relies on our fear of demons to create this religious practice of requiring us to pray to God so God can act. This is clearly fear based. I have found no evidence that this type of things works at all. I have observed how these types of beliefs create people who live in fear and tension all the time.
Jeff, this quote “summon ‘natural spirits in their rituals” is taken from the last sentence of my editorial.
ReplyDeleteRichard said: "Its very easy to point out that fear is the basis of this belief system, not love. One example is Roger J. Morneau. His ideas create more magical thinking in regards to prayer and demons than all the Harry Potter books put together.
ReplyDeleteThis far from truth. Roger Morneau is not relating fancy ideas in his books. His experience with demons are as real as were his answers to prayer.
His books also not AT ALL based on FEAR since demons are known to work in a very subtle manner, wooing and attracting people as angels of light. That's what makes their work so destructive. I can't imagine they would be so daft as to show their real face and struck us with dealy fear.
The Harry Potter series is a prime example of that. Everything is so beautiful and attractive and yet, children are being taught that it's ok to rely on magic instead of on God.
Finally, having found a God of Love, Roger Morneau's books have helped recreate the image of a loving God that answers prayers more than any other Adventist or Christian author in recent history.
Richard said: "...I have found no evidence that this type of things works at all."
A purely empirical system of "faith" is the greatest oxymoron of all.
Andre posted "This far from truth. Roger Morneau is not relating fancy ideas in his books. His experience with demons are as real as were his answers to prayer."
ReplyDeleteThe idea that there are demons just waiting around every corner is paranoid and fear based. If God is so powerful and has won the war, why do demons have all this power?
Stating that God can't act unless we pray is essentially the same thing as casting spells. The idea that if we pray correctly, ask in Jesus name, or some other proof text based idea to get God to act is essentially treating the Bible as a spell book. Its simply semantics.
There is a great cartoon on asbojesus. A man prays to God and asks, "How long is there going to be suffering down here?" and God answers, "I was going to ask you the same thing."
To me this idea of prayer is simply a way to justify inaction. And its based on a view of humanity that simply sees humans as helpless depraved evil beings.
I believe in a world of cause and effect. Fearing some unknown force called the devil and/or waiting for God to act is far more superstitious than reading about Harry Potter who shows a willingness to die for the people he loves, is fallible, and faces life with courage.
If you have read the books you would realize its simply a story about every man. Harry Potter simply happens to be a wizard. This story of the hero's journey has been told many times in different contexts.
If your idea of faith never checks to see if its working then there is no limit to the crazy things people will do in the name of faith.
I'd say that neither Morneau's nor Rowling's writings encourage "magical thinking."
ReplyDelete"Demons waiting around every corner" is hardly an accurate description of Morneau's message. Having dabbled in the occult in his youth, he had a healthy respect for its dangers, but knew they were pale impostors compared to God's power. As for "why do demons have all this power?" Morneau makes it clear that the devil only has a foothold where people give him one.
Prayer is indeed a mystery, but it's clear from scripture that, for whatever reason of His own, God chooses to use our intercessory prayers. I suspect it's the same reason why God doesn't just show up and chat with every human being, but asks us to do much of the leg work for Him. God wants to involve us in His salvific plan. It's a duty and a nearly staggering privilege.
"To me this idea of prayer is simply a way to justify inaction."
My father edited all of Morneau's books, and in so doing, became impressed to pray for his own unsaved father, a man he'd shut out of his thoughts for much of his adult life. The spiritual growth required for my father to engage in intercession for someone who had hurt him so deeply is certainly not described by the word "inaction." The supernatural power manifested in my late grandfather's life in the wake of our prayers continues to amaze me a decade later.