"It Is a Myth that Homosexuals Cannot Change"
As an open-minded Adventist, I have often debated in my own mind the issue of homosexuality. I fully supported Adventists Against Prop 8 on the grounds that the State of California had no business defining marriage as being only between a man and a woman by using a religious viewpoint. I stood with many other Adventists who advocate for a clear separation between church and state and who vow to protect the rights of others.
Then I read "A Solemn Appeal" and drew my line in the sand. I surprised myself, as a progressive Adventist, by doing so.
While I accept and embrace gays/lesbians with extended arms of grace to experience worship, communion, and fellowship in my spiritual community, I have uncharacteristically found myself having to question "how far am I willing to go before I call the sinner to repentance, as Christ did when he repeatedly told those He healed, 'go and sin no more?' "
So what did this come down to? I cannot in good conscience accept one of the points in their "A Solemn Letter." The moment this petition asked for my signature to advocate for a gay lifestyle (specifically sexual intercourse), I felt a spiritual tug in my heart that something just wasn't right. The last bullet point states,
We believe the same Jesus who said, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath,” might say today in regard to this issue, “Marriage was made for humans, not humans for marriage.” We believe God wants homosexuals, as well as heterosexuals, to enjoy the many blessings of a monogamous, committed relationship – companionship, support of each other, a greater understanding of God’s love, and emotional and sexual intimacy – needs with which He created all of us."I saw many of my friends, acquaintances, and those I engage with in conversation on other blogs who I admire and highly respect sign the petition. Many of those friends view the Bible as being silent on sexual behavior within a consensual, monogamous committed homosexual relationship. For them, Adventist gays and lesbians who love Christ and practice the two greatest commandments of Matthew 22:36-40
in a faithful marriage are safe under this hermeneutics.This is the hermeneutics suggested by Christian activist, and homosexual, Justin R. Cannon. I wrote a review and commentary of his work here. Check it out for more background.
For a few days after "A Solemn Appeal" was posted, there was the strong familiar urging to join the groupthink of this thoughtful letter and sign the petition to advocate for rights and justice on behalf of our GLT community. I agree with my friend, the Loma Linda religion professor, who left a farewell message on his last blog posting stating that "the issue of sexual identity is not at the heart of the Gospel, but ... the issue of justice is." Dr. Nam further states, and I also fully agree that "God's high call for righteousness includes in our time to recognize the full humanity, dignity, and equality of bisexual, gay, lesbian, and transgendered children of God for the way God made them--both in society and in our church community."
Looking beyond these parameters that has caused so much divide amongst Jesus-loving Adventists, and allowing that last bullet point in "A Solemn Appeal" to speak on its own, I was forced to ask myself a difficult question: At what point do I dismiss the authority of scripture to accommodate my surrounding culture?
This time, I had to stand on my own two feet. I had to call a spade a spade.
I won't debate what the Bible says on homosexuality because it is an issue that I continue to discover new ground through careful Biblical study. I expect the saints will do a fine job commenting ad nauseam the usual proof text methods about abomination, fornication and make insensitive remarks about how God did not make "Adam and Steve."
At the same time, I don't side with religious conservatives who often interpret all of the Biblical passages that touch on same-sex activity as condemning homosexuality in all its forms. One needs to study the Bible responsibly, inspect the original language, context and attempt to understand precisely what the writers taught. It may reveal something else you've been brought up to believe.
I leave you with a lasting impression that comes from the personal view of a well-respected Adventist pastor who shares the conservative Biblical view. What makes his view different is that, if you must label this pastor, he's a loving progressive, not a Bible-thumping fundamentalist. With his permission below is an e-mail I received from him. It has been slightly edited to protect privacy. I'm using this to state the difficult position I find myself in, at the expense of outcries from the thoughtful liberal/progressive camp. If a "thinking pastor" feels this way, there is hope at least, for some in the GLT community to perhaps think the same:
Homosexuality is a big issue in the Adventist church. I have many of them attending [our church] so I know how sensitive we must be. A year ago, I preached [on the topic]. In that series I made it very clear that marriage is only between a man and a woman. God gave me the words to say it in such a way that I did not discourage the gays from continuing to attend. We have even had a gay man [participate] in the praise team. I had met privately with him to get an agreement that he was not practicing the gay life style. There are no sinless people on our praise team. So [our church] is an Adventist church where gays feel welcome.I end with a prayer. Because I do not have all the answers, I pray that I, and you, continue to set aside any instilled fears and prejudices and allow for the Holy Spirit to open up our minds in compassion to make truth known to us, just as faithful gays and lesbians continue to do the same. I share the same commitment as my friend Julius (who may not agree with my stance) that we need to work through these issues with much prayer, study of Scripture, patience, trust and humility in each other who make up the Body of Christ.
I have some twenty books on homosexuality and have read widely and the myth that they keep presenting, even in this ["A Solemn Appeal"] statement, is that homosexuality is a born condition just like being born left handed. This is not the case. There is still a huge debate going on concerning the origins of the homosexual orientation. And even if we could prove that it was genetic that still does not mean it must be OK. There are many traits we receive that are genetic since we are all sinners that are not OK. Some great examples are physical deformities. We don't say they are OK just because they are genetic.
In a letter to the editor [of a Christian magazine] some years back I pointed out that the whole point of being born again was to overcome our cultivated and inherited tendencies to evil. Again it is a myth that homosexuals cannot change. In my own extended family there is a practicing homosexual, whom we love deeply and his partner, and a member who was a lesbian for a number of years and is now happily married [to a man] for many years. I have conversed with others who have changed as well. So again, when the homosexual group makes blanket statements in these areas they are not really helping their cause.
Note [edit]: Is homosexuality a condition that cannot be changed? I invite you to take the current reader poll located on the sidebar.









Marcel, I applaud your views! I must admit that I lean a little more towards the pro-Proposition 8 side, but I also recognize the difficulties with it (the tension between church/state). At the same time, I totally agree with your assessment that *practicing* homosexuality - no matter how committed and monogamous you might be - is not in accordance with God's will.
ReplyDeleteThank you for taking this stand!
I might add that your poll question is a little problematic: it limits the discussion because I agree and disagree with it. I agree that it CAN be a condition that someone is born with, but I disagree with the idea that it cannot be overcome. Perhaps you should include a third option or rephrase the question. Just a thought.
I must recommend this blog post on the subject: http://trinidadsdagay.blogspot.com/2009/04/christians-late-for-gay-bus-and-one.html
ReplyDeleteI'm gay, and still trying to figure out what that means. I am often frustrated that the "progressives" just want me to be gay and all that comes with that, and the 'conservatives" just want me to change and renounce it all. There is not often a space in the middle for God and I to talk about it and think and reason and commune together, because everyone's already decided for me. So, thanks, for opening up a space, small though it may be, to not have it all figured out.
ReplyDeleteHi Marcel
ReplyDeleteThanks for a thought-provoking post.
I find the question 'Can gays change?' to be a very problematic one. The reason is that change can occur on so many levels. For example, if a homosexual orientation is something that someone is born with, what does it mean to change? Is it the orientation that can change? Just the behaviour? The thinking of the person in response to whatever they are experiencing?
I think when we ask the question about change, we need to be much more specific about what we are actually referring to.
Regards
Steve
My friend was the head lawyer for Oregon's Defense of Marriage Coalition. There's this interesting article on him, written by Taylor Clark, author of Starbucked. I think it gives food for thought here.
ReplyDeletehttp://wweek.com/story.php?story=4983
While I appreciate that you seem to have given more prayerful consideration to this topic than many Adventists, I have to confess that I find your "stand" disheartening. I object to the claim by the anonymous pastor you cited that categorically states that homosexuality is not a genetic condition - and then equivocates by saying that even if it were proved to be genetic, "that still does not mean it must be OK."
ReplyDeleteI have many gay friends and acquaintances. Some of them knew they were "different" and exhibited atypical gender behavior from a very young age. These friends tried very hard to be "normal" so they'd fit in - there is no doubt in my mind that they did not choose this orientation. At the time homosexuality in the Adventist system meant certain rejection and alienation, so these friends denied or - since being gay wasn't an option to be considered - in some cases remained oblivious to their homosexuality for many years, dating girl friends (it never got far - no chemistry) and rationalizing their attraction toward other men as being part of normal male sexuality - even when their true sexual orientation was obvious to everyone else around them. Years later, these friends are still gay, but since there was no place for them, all of them left the Adventist church. I also have friends who've lived a homosexual lifestyle for some years in the past because they'd experienced sexual abuse as children which destroyed their trust of the opposite sex. Some of these friends have found healing through counseling and have since been able to pursue and maintain healthy heterosexual relationships.
Considering that there is more than one underlying cause for homosexual behavior, and there is increasing evidence that sexual orientation is biologically determined, I find it dangerous to make the assumption that a homosexual lifestyle is inherently "sinful." Personally, I find the pastor's comparison of homosexuality to physical deformities ironic - I can't imagine anyone being cruel enough to tell someone born without legs to stop being lazy and get up and walk like everyone else, yet he seems to think it justifiable - even if homosexuality is indeed proved to be genetically determined - to expect a gay person to either pursue a heterosexual lifestyle (which would be as abhorrent to them as a homosexual relationship would be to a heterosexual person) or remain abstinent for their entire lifetime, effectively castrating them.
Why do we feel the need to judge homosexuals at all? I don't know about you, but I don't make a habit of looking for flaws (genetic or otherwise) in my fellow church members and "calling them to repentance." Last time I checked God is supposed to do the judging. Could this be a case of needing to remove the plank from our own eye before removing a speck from someone else's?
So, this is one of those topics that I never feel comfortable "choosing sides" about because I feel that my understanding is so weak and incomplete of the whole subject. I did feel that the pastor you quote made a comparison that I can agree with: comparing homosexuality to a "deformity" rather than something like "pedophilia" (which is often done in those Sabbath afternoon heated' discussions). If this is the case, we are all "deformed" and we are all incomplete and inaccurate depictions of what God created us to be. How does this change anything for me? I'm not sure. But I find myself agreeing with you here and I'm applauding you for considering where "to draw the line". We'll keep praying that God keeps lighting our path!
ReplyDeleteFrom personal experience, comparing pedophilia with homosexuality is not all that different from confusing pedophilia with homosexuality. That's not good for homosexuals OR teeny-tiny parishioners. There needs to be a clear line drawn in Adventist minds differentiating the two. They're definitely not the same.
ReplyDeleteI am coming to believe that this issue is becoming one of the defining issues of our time. It brings out such strong emotions on all sides and really feels extremely polarizing (whether that's a product of the issue or our culture I'm not sure).
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate John's questions about a middle ground. I am not homosexual, although I identify with his recognition of the seeming 1/2 truths presented by the far left and the far right. It is unfortunate we live in a time where it is almost impossible to make a stance in the middle of two emotional and mobilized groups hollering past each other.
It seems untenable to me to unequivocally declare that homosexuality is wholly environmentally formed OR wholly genetically formed. The few homosexual people I know personally have a rather complex understanding of the formation of their orientation(s). Looking at my own sexuality, I never consciously decided to be heterosexual, nor can I pinpoint an event which shaped me thus - could it be that our homosexual brothers and sisters understand the development of their own sexuality through a mirror dimly as most heterosexuals do? At the same time, I have yet to read a definitive study confirming a genetic link to homosexuality.
What if we all agreed to love and accept all people, and allowed the Holy Spirit to 'convict the world of sin' (John 16)? It's not our job anyway.
Kristopher,
ReplyDeleteI've read alot of studies linking the use of medicine during pregnancy to the child's sexual identity and orientation. I'm not learned about it at all, just your average college student and activist here, and I don't think this should devolve into a scientific debate (I can see the hateful headlines of that one, are homosexuals human: the study) but I do think there's some good scientific proof as to biological, not genetic, linkage.
I think the religious community (not just Christian, but Muslim, Hindu, and Jewish as well) has gotten too far involved. To me, religion becomes extreme religiosity and repressive when it becomes less spiritual and more about us when we go into the details like this. I stand with you, here, in saying it isn't our job, nor our business. And with Marcel in saying, "Hey, I'm not God, how am I supposed to know?"
John struck a deep chord with me, too. I'm really sorry about all the pushes and pulls you have to endure. Overcoming my own cultural prejudice about sexual orientation is one of my biggest goals. I'm definitely prejudiced and am ashamed to say so, but have to because it's true. It's only by what is given to me, both by the gay community and by my idea of God that I'm able to be a loving person. I don't know much of anything. I'm really sorry for how this has hurt you. I feel alot of kinship with the gay community because of similar sexual hurts. Always, love should be first.
One of my best friends is gay and I remember once, walking all around Portland, Oregon. We were both crying and expressing to each other our own deep hurts and prejudices in regards to sexuality and spirituality. (He was raised Baptist, and his parents tried to exorcise him when he came out of the closet.) His pain was just as deep as my deep pain, and I felt so fiercely protective of him when he talked about it. I wanted to hold onto him and suction all the confusion and pain out of him. It's just not fair.
This is something that is nearly as close to my heart as being there for sexual abuse victims in the church. If only everyone could see the deep pain arising from their need to judge.
Interesting post. I appreciate your recognizing that it is a far more complex issue than many on either side would suggest. As someone who signed "A Solemn Appeal," I didn't arrive at that position lightly or easily and I'm still by no means convinced that I'm absolutely right about it -- just that in such a polarizing issue I choose to place myself on the side that more often responds in love and charity rather than in harshness and condemnation.
ReplyDeleteI don't find your post to be harsh and condemnatory at all, but genuinely open and interested. As for the question of whether homosexuality is a condition that one can change, I came to my view that it is not, mainly through talking and listening to those who have tried for years to make themselves straight, or pray themselves straight, or get enough therapy to turn them straight. Two other things I found very useful were reading Mel White's book "Stranger at the Gate: Gay and Christian in America," which I recommend to any conservative Christian seeking to learn more about this issue, and also to do some general research into the success rates and long-term psychological results of ministries and therapies that claim to be able to change people's orientation.
John: Thanks for the acknowledgment. It's easy to fall into either groupthink mentality while ignoring that God is sovereign and in control over this issue, and over your life! I just choose now to hop off the bandwagon and lean on His understanding, not on my understanding of a particular group's calling or stance.
ReplyDeleteSteve: Great questions. I don't mean to imply for a second that any homosexual needs to change. That would make me a Pharisee ready to cast a stone at the adulteress when I, too, am a sinner. If I did, I'm sorry. I am questioning, as I stated in my post, how far am I willing to test God's authority in advocating for justice? I look in the mirror and personally acknowledge that I need a balance to advocate on behalf of God's laws too. But if I were to give you a blunt answer with time expiring on the clock, I'd say sexual behavior. I trust on God's ability to work miracles if change is in order for some.
Lorelei and Trudy: I respect your views. In my case, I know of Adventist gays who also have tried to change and while trusting God faithfully in the process regardless of the outcome, choose to live a righteous celibate life and lovingly obey God's laws. I honor and praise them! I feel compassion for those friends of yours who have prayed for change to no avail. My heart goes out to them. Perhaps God doesn't intend for them to change because He has a much BIGGER plan ahead to use them? While I don't think it's wrong to be born gay, what I'm having a hard time with is accepting the sexual and active gay lifestyle (including marriage) as a blatant disregard for God's original creation plan. See Genesis 1 and 2.
I'll keep searching and studying in the meantime.
I personally might consider polygamy to also be a "blatant disregard for God's original creation plan." Yet it occured in the Old Testament (ie Jacob, Elkanah) and the Sabbath School quarterly(about a year ago)seemed to indicate that God allowed other types of marriage after the fall. I realize they were not addressing gay marriage at the time. I've noticed that Adventists emphasize the Eden ideal a lot about diet too, but then acknowledge that God allowed eating meat, even though they don't endorse it. It's a puzzler.
ReplyDeleteMarcel, your post was refreshing. It's always safer to abide by what God has revealed in his word and his natural revelation than try to appease a culture that is moving farther away from God.
ReplyDeleteHe is coming soon! (Rev. 14)
(Any chance we can remove this pesky word verification, FCOL? ;o)
I'm not gay, and I'm not God.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the Bible is the word of God, translated through an imperfect human lens that is not immune to misconception or cultural bias.
Thus, for me to conclude that the rightness or wrongness of someone else's homosexuality is my place to judge and enforce seems ludicrous. It is also a huge distraction from what I am really called to as a Christian. In a world of hunger, poverty, war and greed, it seems silly that we spend so much time passing judgment on personal relationships between consenting adults.
With regard to lesbians - there was a study a few years back that concluded that women embrace the homosexual lifestyle because of male abuse - especially from their fathers -Also personally I think it is an extension of envy or narcissm - if you look at so-called fashion magazines - the nudity and pornographic poses of some of the women are appealing to what? Women - to buy stuff to try to be like them - and yet those pictures would titalate a heterosexual man. These factors may play a role in male homosexuality - but men are less likely to reveal bad stuff from their childhood
ReplyDeleteIn 1993, Bob Davies and Lori Renuel wrote a book called Coming Out of Homosexuality: New Freedom for Men and Women as a comprehensive and practical guide for persons desiring change in their sexual orientation. Written from an evangelical perspective, it documents studies by believers and non-Christians alike, affirming the possibility of change, and describes a process by which change can occur. See also William E. Masters and Virginia E. Johnson, Homosexuality in Perspective (New York: Bantam. 1979) for evidence from respected "secular" researchers that change is possible. They reported a success rate of nearly 72 percent for homosexuals seeking change at the end of their six-year period of inquiry.
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to add more information that didn't get on my original posting.
Much of the research shared by conservatives and change ministries has not been exposed to unbiased scrutiny. There are some unbiased studies that seem to indicate that if someone is more on the bisexual part of the orientation continuum they might be able to be able to have opposite sexual attractions and ability to have emotionally/sexually intimiate spousal relationships.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that a church with such strong values of separation of church and state would activily ignore those values to keep gay and lesbian people from having the right to marry. It makes me wonder if the fear of gay and lesbian people having relationship rights is more important than church/state separation.
As to the Bible studies. I know of Adventist theologians who have had their Advetnist jobs threatened if they published their careful exigetical work that came to a different conclusion than is expressed in the church manual. Even so, it might be interesting to read some of John Jones recent thoughts on the subject. Madelyn Haldenmen when she was alive also presented some thoughtful work on the New Testament and this issue. Mitch Tyner, even though he is a retired GC lawyer has some cogent thoughts on the history of Adventism and this issue.
The way gay and lesbian people are treated by the church has led to such painful self hate. the way I have seen people demeaned breaks my heart. The Denver Bishop who preached powerfully against homosexuality probably didn't know that his acolate, Matthew Shepard was a gay. But, neither has he taken responsibility for the fact that his words sent Matthew into a place where his self hate led him to not take good care of himself or set good boundaries. That boy should not have been killed and I hold the people who pushed him out of his church partially responsible.
There are many thoughtful Adventist pastors, educators and church administrators who are supportive of their lesbian and gay fellow believers: of their relatinships and their journey with God. This is not an open and shut issue inside the church.
Blessings all
Catherine
Thank you Marcel for speaking the truth, despite the repercussions you will undoubtedly get on this website. Would this website be interested in an article specifying the many inconsistencies, , distortions, and outright lies perpetuated by Kinship International, the self-proclaimed "voice" of gay Adventists? I guarantee it would stir up a hornets nest!
ReplyDeleteDr. Stone, so far there have been no repercussions except compliments from both sides for a fair and compassionate argument. In relations to your article suggestion, I'm not interested in hearsay, accusations, smearing, judging, or condemnation. If you have a balanced news style piece or analysis with referenced sources and quotes for all your claims, you can submit it to marcel@atoday.com for consideration. I'll be happy to look at it.
ReplyDeleteThanks,
Marcel
Not sure what you mean by "balanced" but wouldn't an article pointing out Kinship's distortions and lies automatically be considered "judging" and full of "condemnation" by you?
ReplyDeleteI don't know Marcel personally, but my guess is that his goal is not to "stir up a hornets nest" but rather to have an intelligent and fair discussion.
ReplyDeleteIf a person or organization is advocating on behalf of a cause that we don't like, the easiest and laziest way out is sometimes to ignore an in depth look at the issue itself, and instead focus on the advocating entity. If we can make a compelling case that it is corrupt, evil, or riddled with character flaws, we've won, and we don't have to bother with the real issue.
I may not agree entirely with Marcel's point of view on this issue, but I have a deep respect for the way he's approaching it, and I'm much more likely to take to heart his thoughts than an article that focuses on smearing something or someone (whether it's true or not is not the point, if its a distraction from the real issue, my time is better spent elsewhere).
Aside from the gay or not gay issue there is a theological issue which has still to be resolved. the article states:
ReplyDelete"...as Christ did when he repeatedly told those He healed, 'go and sin no more?' "
That phrase go and sin no more is only used once in the Bible. That one use in John 8:11 is not even found in the oldest manuscripts. The story though beautiful and worthwhile is very likely a scribal addition to the book of John.
I would guess written by a very pious scribe who thought he could make a story he heard sound even better by having Jesus instruct someone to go and do something that they had absolutely no chance of doing. In short assuring that the woman would fail to obey the one who had forgiven her. (though the NIV improves the phrase by saying "Go now and leave your life of sin." Which certainly has a different emphasis.)
But in religion it is often how tradition uses a verse that becomes the most important thing. But I find it helpful to know that God never really asks us to do what both He and we know we can't do. Even when such an idea may seem to come straight from the Bible.
Sounds like the authors of A Solemn Appeal need to start their own denomination--the Seventh GAY Adventist Church. Then they could take all the "proof texts" and convert them into Gay Agenda propaganda. Example: ICor. 6:9-11 "...neither the sexual immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals...will inherit the kingdom of God UNLESS they practice the above actions in a loving, committed manner."
ReplyDeleteJohn 21:25 "There are many other things Jesus did, but I know for sure he NEVER said anything against homosexuality. I never heard anything personally, and neither have others whom I've spoken with. So, with Jesus, I say, Gay is OK!"
I believe it is well known that there is a gender continuum with the stereotypical male at one end and the female at the other. In the center position is a band of uncertainty or combination who have gender brain confusion some with chromosomal abnormalities or a female brain in a male body and vice versa--brain and body don't match. This can be based on nature/nuture in our development before and after birth.
ReplyDeleteSome of the posts fail to point out this important fact--some can change and others can't for biological or genetic reasons. Because this is so painful, it could be considered as gender "deformity" but we do not blame those born with physical afflictions for their condition and expect them to change it--we treat them with compassion.
As for a biblical look at this issue I would recommend a CD of a talk given at the San Diego Adventist Forum by Dr. Ivan Blazen. The 2-disk set can be purchased for $9.50 (non-members of the Forum) by ordering from San Diego Adventist Forum, PO Box 3148, La Mesa, CA 91944-3148
I have no issue with homosexuality. I have no issue with heterosexuality. But it troubles me that we are still arguing about this in 2009. I mean, it's a bit like the issue of "abortion" in that there are basically two polarized camps of opinion, each claiming some sort of scientific "proof" in support of it's perspective, neither likely to win new converts from the other camp. Further discussion moves us no closer to any useful Truth.
ReplyDeleteRight now we've got global warming, a global economic crisis, and a global increase in conflict and population displacement.
Do we not have more important things to worry about than whether homosexuals can be Adventist? (they CAN be...)